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August 03, 2005

Comments

Matt

This is a joke so don't take it personally.

Translation: I want a job that doesnt care how well I did in school, unless of course I did really well, then please look at my outstanding grades. Also, this job must require no problem solving skills, I hate figuring things out on my own so please take care of that for me. Although I tell you that I will work hard for you, please don't give me a lot of work, I do have a social life you know. And even though I have no experience, do not want to work hard, and wont tell you how I did in school, you have to pay me enough to pay off the loans for those worthless grades, and to live in a nice city area. I hope to hear from you soon, thank you for considering me for this position.

J.P.

First of all, I suppose I should clarify to a certain extent. I have no plans to try to get into a huge 50 member plus firm after graduation. I recognize the school I went to and the limitation it will place on my career until I prove myself with some work experience. I'm not interested in the big firm life style and thus I am completely willing to take the 20 or 30 grand less that my qualifications and better lifestyle will warrant. This letter is not an indignant plea to get into one of these places that think I don't "deserve" to work at- I really don't want to and I know I'm excluded anyways. These are places for the guys who got good grades, they're generally pretty conformist and they like to play it safe, they are going to try to get ahead by slaving away for 10 years and hopefully making partner. I know I'm not cut out for that I am not asking for anyone to make an exception for me.

In terms of the grades thing- I think your comment misses the point. I'm not saying ignore my grades, but any job interview I have ever been to in my life where they have a copy of your transcript they are bound to ask about your grades. If you did consistently terrible then I am not sure what you are going to say- you are dyslexic possibly. If you did great then I guess this isn't an issue- you'll probably say nothing the rest of the interview and play it safe and hope no one with better grades applies for the same job. Me- my grades are pretty inconsistent. I have some pretty good grades, some average grades, and really pretty shit grades. So instead of being ashamed or being a pansy about it- I am just going to tell you what I think up front, which is that overall I don't think my grades reflect what I have learned. You can chose to believe me as an employer, you can chose not to-- it's your call. On top of that I've heard so many successful people say that, "Grades don't mean bullshit." Case in point the VP of Cigna who is an attorney said that to Derek at a fundraiser in Hartford. I know you (matt) got very good grades and obviously I am not saying that doesn't count for something. However, I've heard too many people say that grades don't really translate to success in the real world and after seeing some of the "brilliant" people in law school and in college who surpass me in terms of grades who nonetheless I would never in a million years want as my attorney- I am tempted to believe this is true.

As for the "problem solving skills". I just think this is bullshit for a couple reasons- 1. You miss my point which is that if your boss just leaves you to sift through a mountain of work without any direction- chances are no matter how good your "problem solving skills" are you'll do a fairly shitty job, or at least a terribly inefficient job. Professors I have spoken to who went to top law schools and have top MBAs on top of that have described their experiences on this stuff and its amazing how some firms just offer no guidance at all while other firms have a program in place to show their associates how to do things. Truth is I am not afraid to say I'd rather work for the firm that shows me at least some of what to do. Since what I've heard on this is that "programs" aren't as common at small firms- I'd be dependant on a mentoring atmosphere, so again- I'm going to ask if there is one. If there isn't then I don't want to work there. 2. As I said before I (and everyone else at RWU) went to a pretty low ranked school. Whether you're at the top or the bottom you are at a serious disadvantage out of the gate compared to people from say BU or BC (in this area of the country). Thus, I want to learn something and advance my career. If I am going to be working for a private firm then I want to get something out of it other than a paycheck. If I am going to use "problem solving" (=trial and error) to figure things out, then I might as well be a public defender where at least the consequences of messing up are lower and getting a job is a hell of a lot easier. 3. If an employer doesn't see how mentoring and instructing their associates initially isn't going to pay off in the long run- then I don't want to work for them. Period. Anyone who has this attitude sees you as a wage laborer and is pretty much the complete opposite of everything I've said I was looking for so far. On top of that it's just plain stupid. It's like the maxim, "Give a man a fish he'll eat tonight. Teach a man to fish he'll eat for the rest of his life." If you as an employer don't see how training me initially is an investment that will pay off not just for me, but for your firm- then again- I have no interest in working for someone with this kind of shortsightedness.

As for the social life thing- look at any interview book and they are going to tell you a good question to ask is the social life and family life of the firm- social obligations, company sporting events, socialization with clients, etc. This statement says- yes, my family and my friends are important to me and I want to do more than email them to be happy. Some firms don't see it this way and lawyers spend most of their 30s and forties going to meetings at midnight- living at the firm basically. These are people who've decided that money and work are more important than anything else and they want to work with people that feel the same way-- I'll be up front in saying I don't belong there. Working 12 hour days seems completely reasonable to me, but it's worth saying you don't want to be there all the time. At least for me-- there is a reason I am working and it isn't work in and of itself. I don't completley draw my ego from my job or my grades so truthfully I don't feel inferior or lazy for saying I don't need to be there all the time. I've heard so many attorneys who worked at big firms tell me that working the 16 hour days is not a paying your dues type of thing at those firms it's a way of life until you retire- if that's what you want, you can take it, but I'd rather be poor if I have to be or look for work in another field.

As for the payment thing- I'm shocked you say this one. I see job postings all the time on the RWU site that are paying 29K-35k (literally nothing when you take out loan payments) and they want people on law review or top 5% of the class LIVING IN NYC OR BOSTON. This is just absurd. I don't care how stupid you are- you could make exponentially more money than this as a pharmaceutical rep or a stock broker-- jobs which I am pretty confident I could get today if I quit school and started looking. Again, the bottom line is that if an employer scoffs at this then it says a lot about him/them: a. They are cheap. Get ready to pay out of your own pocket for pretty much everything and don't expect money to be spent when it should on things like office equipment or events that drum up business. b. there's a good chance the firm is in financial trouble. If they want to pay you 30k to work for them without any kind of bonus etc, then they probably are not getting very much business or are in some kind of law that is not lucrative. If it's something like family law- then fine, but otherwise you better ask yourself what you are adding to your resume by working there as well as what kind of future there is at this place you are selling your soul for every night. Bottom line-- in my mind if I'm working hard you better pay me enough so I am not in poverty or at the very least what I am worth. If all I am worth is 30k, then I guess I am screwed, but if you're trying to lowball me, then like I said- I'll go be a public defender if I wanted to get paid the lowest possible wage. You can't reasonably expect someone without a trustfund to a. do a good job as an attorney and live in a major city and make so little they basically need an extra job to survive. I'm not going to stick up for the employer if they are doing this-- I just don't agree with it. In my opinion I'd take a job in a more rural area where money goes further and where I can get experience-- case in point go work in New Hamphire or Worcester instead of Boston, etc.

The truth is I think this is what the vast majority of people who are in law school are thinking, at least the ones at our school. I'm not in the top of the class so realistically I can't just let my grades do the talking. That being said I don't feel even the slightest bit of shame for not being one of those top guys. Having seen some of the nut jobs who are I'd shudder at letting them near a client let alone in front of a jury. Like Popeye said, "I am what I am." I'm totally confident that I'll do well in whatever I end up doing in life so I am not afraid to say what I want from an employer and what my goals really are.

Matt

Whoa, holy shit man, I was totally kidding. I just thought it was funny that if you really wanted to you could translate it to say what I said, i didnt mean that you were like that or anything. It was a joke.

Listen, you and I have talked about this stuff a thousand times, so I will echo our conversations and your above rant.

1. Grades really dont mean shit in the working world and are in no way an indication of how one will perform in a work environment. I have said that since high school and continue to say it to today. I have done well in school since I was a kid, and truthfully, it hasnt gotten me much further then those people who did not do well. In fact, I have friends who didnt even complete college that make more money than me today and live more complete lives.

2. Problem solving skills are worthless unless you are given the tools to complete the problem. So once again I agree with you, Effective training, combined with listening and notetaking on the part of the employee will result in much better results then just tossing them into the mix.

3. Amount of work - I have said to you many times that I will not be one of those assholes that works their life away for the firm, I dont believe in it and never will believe in it. A balance between life and work is neccessary, if that means lower pay then so be it.

4. Pay, come on man, you know I follow you on this, we have talked about it before. Any respectable law office can afford to pay attorneys enough to survive, it is just that they always try to lowball which is total bullshit. I just worked my ass off for 3-4 years, payed thousands of dollars, and took the hardest test of my life, so give me the respect of offering me a decent salary.

Like I said in the first place,"this is a joke so dont take it personally". I guess what I meant by that was, this is a joke so dont take it personally. I totally agree with everything you said.

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